[Some spoilers follow]
Everyone's got such an interesting back story about how and when they got involved in this film. When did you meet [writer-director] David Michôd?
I met David... I suppose it's eight years ago or something. We kind of knew each other socially, and at one point he said, "Well, I've been writing this thing and I'd like for you to have a look at it." I was like, "Yeah, OK." It can often be an unfortunate bridge to cross with people. And I had a look at it. There was some really strong stuff in there, but it really changed quite a bit over that period. It's an incredible thing to watch someone profoundly skill up. David's a really dark horse. You don't expect the level of insight and ingenuity. He's a dark horse.
"Dark horse" in what ways?
Well, David appears to be a very sweet kind of guy, but he has got... [Long pause] You can't guess at the tenacity and the ability to get things done -- the ability to read people and transpose as well as he does. Just how f*cking smart he is. That incredible barometer of feeling. I mean, the reason people go apesh*t over this film is because of the intensity of feeling that's there. It's got a lot of brilliant cinematic stuff there. David did all that.
He said that when you guys sat down to work this film out, it was... difficult.
Yeah, because he got a smack from me when we went to rehearsals. I was on the back end of a very long stretch of work, and this thing had been around for long stretch of time in one way or another. Anyway, we came to do it, and I think the first thing David wanted to do was the prison scene with myself and Luke Ford and Jacki Weaver. We had a read, and I said, "What the f*ck are we doing? What are we doing this for? We don't even know anything yet. What the f*ck are we even attempting? This is f*cking bullsh*t. You and me, we need to talk." And so we went away and... Look, people who've known me for a while know I can be kind of obstreperous. It's not a highly personalized thing; it's just kind of Aussie speak. So we went away and we went over everything because you don't want to f*ck a character like this up. You don't want him contactable. You don't want to feel like you can contact or even sway this person. Do you know what I'm talking about?
I do. But of course he's always telling Darren and J, "You can talk to me." Does Pope really believe that?
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Is his frustration that he doesn't think it'll happen? Or that it hasn't happened yet?
I would think to a degree he would go from that to being outraged. He wouldn't be able to see himself with any accuracy. I don't know that he'd be able to describe another person to you with any accuracy because his lens is such a... kaleidoscope, really. He's constantly looking through these shifting shapes. I don't think he can describe anything with any objective accuracy. So when he's doing something like reaching out to them, he's trying to effect something, on one hand. On the other hand, it's all in there. "You can talk to me, you know?" But the minute someone looks at you like that, it's the last f*cking thing you want to do. Because it involves getting close to him in some way. And he's going to take offense at something or be suspicious about something or control you more.
And obviously he's having a hard time adjusting to his roles in the family. He's having difficulty being a son, being a brother and, of course, being a father figure, in a way. How did those different sides of the character interface with each other?
I don't think of them as different sides at all. I just think of them as the one thing flipped over and over again. And that's... It's hard to even... [Pause] I'm not trying to be withholding in this, but it's hard to even put it into words what it is because it's such a felt thing. Part of what we did to get to that feeling was talk about [how] David was into the idea that [Pope] was very confused and very damaged. That was the template he wanted to start with.
On top of that you just kind of add in some sort of family dynamics. The fact that there's no discernible father figure around, and he would have had to step into that breach. And he's a guy losing his potency in terms of being the breadwinner. Traditionally he would have been able to be the top of the criminal tree, too, because armed robbers used to be. They're not anymore; it's a very hard thing to make a living at. Technology, etc. caught up. Now it's all drug dealers. So it's a bit of the old war veteran in there, too: "You f*cking kids of today." There's a lot of doorways in to playing him, and one of them was also a horror character.
Really? Like who?
You want to know the best single influence? There's a shot at the end of Taxi Driver where it kind of goes all multi-colored. And it's really weird, it's really unsettling. And it's obviously drawn from horror genre stuff. But all you see is a person's face and them going through something. In terms of Pope, what I wanted to try and get was the feeling that if you got noticed by this person, that was not a good thing. That's why it was an idea that appealed to me a lot.
Where did the name Pope come from?
It comes from the idea that was probably quite taciturn and quiet, and into that taciturn space people probably assumed he was kind of wise and capable. Sort of like Motorcycle Boy from Rumble Fish -- that idea of a capable kind of competent, protective dispenser of wisdom. And there is a wisdom and an ability somewhere in him. But under the circumstances in which this film unfolds, you see that deteriorate. The fall of the House of Usher, if you like.
How long had you known the individuals in this ensemble?
I'd known Jacki [Weaver] for 20 years, Sullivan [Stapleton] 10 years, Luke Ford no years, and James Frecheville no years. So they were the two I was the most brutal with.
How so?
Well, I just didn't want [James] anywhere near me, basically. Obviously at some point or another it's going to move on from that phase, but to set it up, I just didn't want him anywhere near me. For his sake and for mine. He doesn't matter. He doesn't matter. And I wanted him to be very aware that he was on my turf. He can bounce back from lots of stuff, James. And look, I like James a lot. We get along quite well. But it was just important to keep a distance. He ended up catching on because my girlfriend at the time sort of said to him, "Oh, you're the one Ben doesn't want anywhere near him." And he said, "Oh, so that's what's going on." But I just wouldn't call him by his right name. I think I called him "John." And "The Kid." He does a pretty good impersonation of it, actually. But that was for him.
And for Luke Ford, who plays Darren, I took one look at him, and I kind of knew that we were similar actors. And I said, "Luke, you and I..." They both do very good impersonations of me. The younger actors in Australia do impressions of varying competency because I've been around there forever. But all I said to him was, "You and me have got this going on in a similar way; we'll figure it out." And then I proceeded to just harangue him. I sent him a copy of Fassbinder's Querelle and I said, "You're the central character; that's what you are." He didn't understand it. In fact, he didn't even watch it, the cheeky little bastard, until I told him, "Watch it." And when he was confused, I said, "You don't get it? You're gay, and I'm going to f*ck you, basically." That's it.
Did Pope really think Darren was gay? Did he really want to know?
What do you think? Huh? I love the spaces here!
I truly believe Darren could have told Pope. I don't know if he was, but I think he could have talked to him.
Yeah. I think there's a few things going on there, and I think you might be right. I think this part of the resonance of it, and this is part of the reason it's able to stay with people: There are enough quality imaginative and emotional spaces for the viewer to enter the picture and become part of it. I think that's what's greatly affecting and good about the film. But it was more to set a template initially between him and I to say, "This is how it's going to be." And he... Oh, f*ck, he was so infuriating. He was infuriating. And he and I created an incredible amount of tension together. A horrible amount of tension. Horrendous, to the point where other people would go off and start punching each other at the end of the day because it had been such a horrible day. They wouldn't fight with me.
When you're on a set -- in an environment -- like that, does it feel like things are going wrong? Or does it feel like, "Hey, we're on to something?"
It's just confusing and exhausting. And horrible. Really awful. It just feels like the worst.
Was that unique to this film, or those relationships you build with your colleagues in other roles?
It's happened before, but not like this. With this film, we knew what we were doing, kind of like people walking around with their eyes shut, almost sleepwalking, knowing what they're doing, yet at the same time being almost lost in it. And that being quite effortless. That's what was f*cking great about it. It means you don't have to work hard. You just go and do it. That's why you get such strong changes in mood and that kind of stuff.
Had you seen the film before Sundance?
No.
That was electric. What was your first impression?
Well, I tell a lie. I saw quite a bit when we were doing ADR. That's when I really saw it. But, you know, ah... [Pause] Look, I was just so happy. I was very happy on a personal level with how uncontactable he was. I was f*cking thrilled. Because I saw it and I went, "Yes, good. You can't tell a f*cking thing that's going on inside there." It's just a human shell kind of scooped out except when the discords come along. There's this other strange sort of melody, and it's like, "What the f*ck is that?"
I've asked everyone about the "All Out of Love" scene, which is just... nuts. What were your thoughts about that shot, both when you were approached and watching it for the first time?
We talked about it, and then we talked about a few of the things that might have been going on. Look, I mean, I know what it's like to get lost inside a mood and inside a song and for it to go off into something else. So we talked about the types of things it would be going off into -- the types of things he would be feeling and something like that. When you see someone in a situation, and you can see they're blown away in some way, that's scary. That's scary. You don't know what's going on inside that person. I'll give you another horror analogy: the little boy and Scatman Crothers in The Shining. You can see there's something going on -- there's something there that's kind of disturbing. And then we go into doors opening and blood pouring, and that's where it falls. But it's that experience of transportation -- when you aren't sure why someone's transported? If you can get that across genuinely, then you're dealing in strong suits.