Writer-director Matthew Chapman's latest feature (opening July 8 in limited release and available now on VOD) is part philosophical thriller, part potboiler, all head trip, with one of the wilder climaxes of any thriller you'll see this year. Much of that is attributable to Wilson, who applies his handsome equanimity to an ideologue tumbling down the rabbit hole of faith. The actor discussed the journey -- and its strange, subconscious influences -- with Movieline.
How are things?
Things are awesome. Couldn't be better.
The Ledge is kind of a departure for you. Let's just start at the beginning: How did you get involved?
They just sent me the script. Matthew says he tried to send it to me seven years ago, but somehow it didn't get to me. I think he's lying -- just trying to make me feel good. No, I got it and thought it was very original. You don't usually see... Well, not "usually." You don't ever see a thriller with a spiritual backbone. I thought, "Wow, this is really like a spiritual thriller. That's bizarre." And I'd played some good guys for a little bit, and I wanted to get a little dirty -- just have a little fun.
"Dirty." As far as your character goes, what was your first impression of Joe?
My first impression was, "Wow -- extremist and pretty unlikable for a lot of it. Let's find out why he is the way he is and go from there." I don't really form opinions about whether people are good or bad or if I like him or don't like him.
That's fair, though he's complex. Fundamentally, he's not really a bad guy until he... is. Adversarial, but conceivably sympathetic.
Well, yeah. I mean, in terms of the structure of the story he's the antagonist. He's the adversary, and I guess he ends up being the bad guy. But all those things, you can't really play. The situation he's in -- with him finding out his wife's cheating on him, and she being the center of his universe, or at least the pin that is holding him together -- once that's gone, he just falls apart. So whether he has religion or not, that emotional perspective was something I knew I could get into. He seemed very approachable -- put it that way. When I look at a character, whether he's good or bad, one scene or 10 scenes, I just have to find my way in. And it was very clear with Joe. I completely understand why he's doing what he's doing. He's completely blown out of proportion and wrong and violent and whatever, but it doesn't matter. I understand why he's doing it.
That said, considering what happens -- and let's not spoil anything here -- do you think Matthew Chapman was fair to Joe?
Fair?
Yes, fair -- in the way that he crafted this story and imposed Joe's will on the lives of others?
I think so. I don't know why he wouldn't be. I mean, in terms of being fair, we stay away from saying what kind of denomination he was. It didn't really matter. He's a very specific person. It's a very singular view. There are a lot of Christian fundamentalists; there are a lot of Muslim extremists. Every religion -- Mormonism -- has something way on the side that's completely using the religion as some weird backbone for their twisted faith. It has nothing to do with their religion. I didn't look at it in terms of faith. It was very specific to his story. I just kept going back to the Bible to find more things to fuel his fire.
Like what?
Like passages from the Old Testament that supported his theories. I mean, if you've got a guy and you're asking, "What would he do? How would he deal it? Well, if a wife lies with another man, then both shall be put to death." Wow. Holy moly. If he believes that, then what else would he find? I would constantly go back. I found this passage about being unclean, and I thought that was great. Matthew was very receptive to me putting in scripture that I found.
I wanted to ask about that as well: It's one thing to talk about script and character; it's another to mine these philosophical issues. How often does that kind of thing come up -- or does it?
Not really. He's a pretty open atheist, so we didn't really get into religion or philosophy other than what Joe's view is. Joe feels very strongly in what he believes, and if you're going to go into a fight, then you want to have all the right weapons. When I'm going in with Charlie, I can read the lines about what he's coming back to me with, and I'd have to keep going back and making sure that the Bible supports what I believe as Joe. And you can do that. That was thing that was so weirdly disturbing: "Jesus said to forgive you if you're ready to give up the sin. Are you?" So I constantly felt like I could challenge him, and he's got a leg to stand on. Again, I think it's a sympathetic character for a large part of the movie. You feel really bad for him for a while.
Did this role or film challenge you as a spiritual person?
No. First of all, religion and spirituality are different things. But I think it's very personal, you know? If somebody wants to go to church because they like the ritual of it and want to sit in silence for a while one time a week, then that's great. If someone wants to go because they believe that God them and Jesus rose after three days, then that's great, too. I just saw The Book of Mormon the other night, and it was awesome. It was awesome because it's such an easy target to make fun of, and yet it's a great message: Whatever you want to believe in, that's great! Who's to say me making up some story is any worse than the plague of frogs in the Bible? You know? I love that. I think at the core, it's the same stuff. It's very personal, whatever you want to take from it.
Film is like religion: Audiences have faith. They suspend their disbelief. We're credulous, and as such, we like to discuss how and why we believe. Can The Ledge move the conversation to that extra level beyond the nominal thriller it is?
That's what made it an interesting movie for me to want to be in! Any time a movie's set up to be about spirituality or religion, it's usually kind of dour, I guess. For everything like The Apostle, which is awesome, there's another religious movie that's sort of boring. That's why the best things are when you watch a documentary about Jesus Camp or something, you know? We always come back to that: That fascination or obsession we have with religion. So if somebody wants to go to a movie just to see if a guy's going to jump off a ledge, great. If they want to talk about it at the end, perfect. The device of the movie -- using a thriller -- can hopefully be entertaining. I think it is to me. That's the most important thing: To get people interested. And to me, that's cool. That's the kind of movie I like: If this guy says, "I ate my popcorn, I liked it." Hey, that's great. If that guy wants to go in and talk about religion because he's crying and doesn't know who God is anymore, then that's awesome. Well, not for him, but you know what I mean.
This movie is a fable in some ways. I think it's written like an opera. And I don't mean this in a bad way, but I think a lot of it is very melodramatic and can be heavy. And I love that! I love that everybody has a very specific view. He's not just devout, he's devout and his wife's cheating on him. [Another character] is not only gay, he's gay and is getting married and studying Kabbalah. I mean, if you're going to do a movie about it, then do a movie about it.
Conceptually anyway, did you guys ever feel like you were biting off more than you could chew?
No, but I see what you're saying. There's a way this movie could have gone -- a little watered down, a jump of suspense, a couple crazy cuts, and maybe you just sort of tiptoe around the issues. But I think it plays stronger when you address what these characters are feeling. I mean, a studio film probably wouldn't have this ending. A studio movie would have cut the monologue scene I have with him. I talk for like five minutes straight! I would probably sit down with the gun and point it at him. To do this movie how [Chapman] wanted to do it, I think you needed that. That's what he's passionate about. He's a filmmaker.
Again, without giving anything away, that climactic reaction shot of yours is indelible. Whether or not the movie works overall, the shot is amazing. What is going through Joe's head at that moment, and where did you draw from?
Loss of control. How do you put in a way that doesn't spoil it? [Pause] He's shocked. Put it that way.
Let's just call it a plot development.
This movie, to me, is how so much sticks out where nothing is spoken. There are a few shots that stick out like that, but this particular shot you're talking about, I felt like he was -- in his own twisted way -- getting his control back, which was taken away from him. And then it was gone. And he knows there's no hope. There's no way out. It can't... [Pause] It's just the worst possible scenario for him. Put it that way. The bottom falls out.
It's such a great shot!
He's such a lost, awful soul. It's terrible.
How did you develop the monologue together?
Well, we went through it, and [Chapman] had written quite a lot. He's a writer, you know? He's written books. We pared it down and tried to get the most out of it. But we had to imagine the situation -- there is a ticking clock here, and I think he's going to see what kind of a man Gavin was. I think he thinks he's a complete coward, and that's where we wanted to let the audience in on him and the caged animal he was.
I haven't said this in any other interview, but my dad was one of the 12 people in the room who saw Ted Bundy die. And that look on his face... I had seen those interviews -- I don't know if you remember. I remember Rev. [James] Dobson, the chaplain. [Bundy] was a very smart man, and he was talking about what was going on with his life, and trying to deal with this impending doom. And you're like, "What? This is that animal?" My dad said that when he walked in that room, about to put the mask on to be electrocuted, it was like this caged animal. And you're like, "That's Ted Bundy." So I think of those moments -- the private moments, where you get that sense of, "Oh, shit, that's Joe. I am not screwing around here." That sense of deadlocked, sweaty... I don't even know what he did in the past eight hours, but it focuses him in, and he's just this animal that's like, "Let's go. I will go to the end, the extremes of the world for my cause. Will you?"
What was your dad doing at Bundy's execution?
My dad's a TV anchor in Florida. So he was one of the journalists covering it.
Looking back, did you draw from that in some kind of roundabout way?
I didn't consciously. Again, you approach any character with what you know. And when I think of a persona, on the outside, which is housing this animal underneath, that is one of the things that always stuck in my mind. It wasn't a conscious thing -- "Oh, I'm going to play Ted Bundy." But that's always an image to me when I think of the most black-and-white vision of what a person is like underneath. Because that was what Joe was: He's a troubled, lost, reckless soul. That's what I always remember from my dad's reaction -- just being blown away by this animal who knew he was faced with death, like a dog in a corner.
Well, it worked, whatever it was.
[Laughs] Thanks!
[Top photo: WireImage]