Needless to say, Giamatti pulls Barney's Version off -- more than pulls it off, actually, stalking, swearing and swooning his way through three decade in the life of TV producer and Montreal gadabout Barney Panofsky. Director Richard J. Lewis and screenwriter Michael Konyves acquit their adaptation of Mordechai Richler's bestseller with taste, humor and grace, and a cast including Rosamund Pike as Barney's long-suffering wife, Dustin Hoffman as his cheeky father, and Scott Speedman as his drug-addled best friend do superlative ensemble work in Giamatti's orbit.
Not long after its Oscar-qualifying run, Barney's Version receives its proper release this week. I sat down with once and future Oscar nominee to talk about pressure up north, Dustin Hoffman's generosity and the implications of that one time he interviewed Russell Crowe.
This is so strange, because the last time we spoke it was also at a round table in a huge empty room. Very uncommon!
I recognize you, and I recognize you sitting a round table. Very strange. And in a very weirdly empty room. Very creepy, empty room. We'll try what we can in here.
That's the spirit. This is such a great role for you, but it's so Canadian.
It's very Canadian.
Did you ever sense any territorialism from the Canadians, especially adapting such a beloved source?
I was worried about it; I was worried I was going to get sh*t from Canada. But I never did. It was really more my problem; I worried about screwing up this Canadian national treasure. But I let go of it pretty fast. Nobody was ever like, "Goddamned American! How daaarrre you?" It was never anything like that.
One thing you've always said is that every time you take a role, there's always something scary about it.
Oh, always.
How did that affect you in developing this role?
That's interesting. The first things we had to shoot were the things in Rome -- when I was youngest in the movie. I was most scared of myself doing younger than older. Older is easier to do than younger, and I was worried it wouldn't be convincing, and I was worried I wouldn't be able to remember what it was like to be young. But also that guy is more bound up and repressed when he's young. So it's funny; it informed that part of it for sure -- that fear about those kinds of things.
What specifically is easier about playing older than younger?
Well, you know, that's receding, and this is coming. I can see this coming, and that's just disappearing more behind me. It's easier to age me up than to make me look young again; I'm never going to have hair again, unless I go with the Rogaine. Or unless I wear a wig, which I had to. But also, at least maybe as an actor it felt like that. But as a person, I don't know that it's so much gone. I guess... [Long pause] Sorry I lost my train of thought. I was going to say something interesting, and I lost my train of thought about it.
Well--
No, hold on, I had something really interesting to say. It was about being younger...
Wigs...
Wigs... Damn it. Damn it. It's slipping away. F*ck it. It's gone. See? Old.
The thematic implications of Barney's Version have literally taken over our interview.
F*cking hell. That's a drag. I had something really interesting to say. Oh, well, it'll come back to me. Sorry.
But you also had something very interesting to say five years in an interview you did with you Cinderella Man co-star Russell Crowe. You had asked him about the physical transformation: "Do you believe in the differences between the internal and the external and all that crap?"
[Laughs] Yeah. What did he say?
I'm more interested in what you have to say, particularly as it pertains to Barney's Version.
I tend to find -- and I don't know if this is necessarily a good thing -- external things giving me sort of internal cues. That's better; I guess I work more from the outside in than the inside out. But that said, it's much more mixed up and complicated than that. I definitely find things like that help me: Wearing the make-up and all this stuff does actually affect me physically, and therefore internally, more than the other way around.
"The audience expects you to transform," was something else you mentioned. Do you still believe that?
The audience expects an actor to, in general?
Yes.
I don't know if that's necessarily true anymore. I think audiences many times actually want you to be the same, you know? Or something. I wonder what I was thinking.
It might have been more in the context of a question, if Russell believes that himself.
Yes, he definitely feels that he needs to transform. That's how I feel, too, though I don't know if I transform as well as he does. That's what I figure I should be doing: to give people something different every time.
And so the prosthetics are practical.
That's what I'm saying: They do a lot of work for me. It makes me obviously look old, so I don't have to do a bunch of "old man" acting. But you can feel that stuff; it gives you a sense of weight. The sense of seeing yourself with the hair does all kinds of things for you. It works for you amazingly well. That stuff made me look heavier and alchol-bloated... It's great stuff.
Covering three decades of this guy's life, were you ever apprehensive about being able to accurately convey this entire period in the space of 132 minutes?
I was worried about cramming all the vitality of the novel that he put into the script. There was a lot more stuff about being at work; a lot of of stuff had to go, or it was going to be a four-hour movie, you know. I was worried that as that stuff went, you were going to lose this sense of bustly, kind of Dickensian vitality that's in the book -- all these crazy, wonderful characters, a lot of whom kind of came into the screenplay. That I was worried about more in terms of scope. Would we get that feeling? I hope it has some of that. But inevitably, you're going to lose some of that.
And yeah -- I was worried about the aging thing being convincing all the time, I'm sure. I was definitely worried. And it works. The make-up is so good. There are these great cuts from me being young to me being old that are really kind of cool. You really see this huge jump. The make-up is so good.
The editing is good, too.
The editing is really good. And the writing. But of course I wanted it to work; there's just always that threat.
I wanted to bring one last thing about that Crowe conversation, in which you mentioned you'd like to believe in a karmic cycle -- that bad behavior and mistreatment comes back to the people who perpetrate it.
What? I said that to him?
Yeah! He said that when he or others act like a "dick," then that comes back to them. You said you'd like to believe that.
I think I said I'd like to believe that, but I don't believe it's true. I think that's what I'm implying when I'm saying that: 'Boy, would I like to be believe that."
But with this and Barney's behavior in mind, does he get what he deserves in the end?
I don't think anybody deserves to go that way. I don't think anybody does. It's really horrible to have that loss of memory like that. It's awful. [Long pause] That's a tough one, man. I don't know. Ugh.
He's obviously a pretty nuanced character.
He is a pretty nuanced character. He's potentially a murderer, even though he's not. He does some bad things. But saying that, it's not a heavily moralizing movie, I don't think.
The consequences of his actions -- pertaining to his one-night stand, anyhow -- are pretty severe.
Yeah, she takes it pretty far and pretty severely. But does he deserve that? No, I don't think so. I don't think so. Do you? Does he deserve that fate?
I don't think he deserves that. But I think Miriam was on her way out anyway, and this just precipitates her exit.
Yeah, probably.
Fair enough! Speaking of Miriam, the relationship between hr and Barney is so lovely -- so beautiful and fragile. What was it like developing that with Rosamund Pike?
She was amazing. I mean, the thing is, I first saw her in that James Bond movie [Die Another Day], and I was thinking, "Wow -- they got the really hot woman who's a really good actress. That's amazing!" Usually it's just the hot woman, and who cares? They're usually not good actresses. So I remember being kind of weirdly obsessed with her for a while: "This woman is f*cking great." And I was really excited that she was going to do it. But she came in and auditioned for it -- like twice. They were being very insane about getting that part exactly right. She came in and sat down, and I felt immediately comfortable with her. Immediately intimate; a lot of women came in, but she was immediately touching me, and it was really warm right off the bat. When she walked out, there was just no question that this is the person who should do it.
Then we got to rehearse, and there was more to it. It was just one of those things; I don't know if I can say how or why it worked so well. It just did. She's a f*cking great actress. She's a really f*cking great actress. And in some ways, she provided me with what Miriam provides Barney: She's really grounded, really smart and really know what she's doing. She really knows her sh*t -- and I don't. I'm a f*cking mess. And she got me really grounded every time I did those scenes with her: "I feel safe as hell standing here with this woman." Really f*cking cool person. I really loved her; I really think she's amazing.
I believe you!
I don't mean to go on and on about it! But I sit and watch this movie, and every time, I'm like, "Holy sh*t!" Because she's great-looking, obviously, but it's one of the first times I've seen a movie where I think: 'This is a real grown-up in this movie. This is a really, truly grown-up person." And she doesn't seem stiff or anything; she's just amazing. And that part could have been just this pretty, perfect woman. But she gives it so much depth and smarts.
I think some of that reflects your persona and the trajectory of your characters as well -- films like John Adams, Sideways, American Splendor, where your volatility is balanced out by these women.
That's true. I hadn't even thought of that -- that in a lot of ways I play these characters who need to be grounded by somebody.
Even Cold Souls. You're dependent on them, but so are they on you. What do you make of that?
It's funny; I've never thought of that. And yeah, American Splendor has that, too -- that woman who comes in and kind of grounds somebody. But what are they getting out of it? I don't know. It's not anything I ever consciously went about. Now that you're pointing it out... I've never really seen it before.
Changing subjects entirely: Dustin Hoffman. It looks like you two had sort of a blast together.
Absolutely. I don't know if you've ever met him or talked to him; he's pretty hilarious. Any thought that comes into his head comes right out of his mouth. He's a very vital guy. He could have played this part [Barney] now if they could have aged him down, totally.
The Curious Case of Barney Panofsky.
Exactly. The way he works is fascinating. I suppose there's a lot of old-school Actors Studio stuff going on; he'll rip a scene apart and make complete mayhem out of it for a while. And it's fantastic, actually: He doesn't throw it out, and he doesn't f*ck with the words, necessarily. He just puts it in a blender for a while if he feels like it's working somehow for him. And he can sense if it's not for you. He's incredibly generous that way; he'll say, "Stop, do you need me to do that again?" And he'll throw other stuff at you. He messes with it insanely and then eventually brings it back.
How does his messing with that chemistry affect what you do?
I loved it. First I was kind of like, "Holy sh*t, what is this guy doing?" But that was kind of great. I've never really had anybody do this kind of stuff with me before. I heard about other actors -- De Niro you hear about doing things like this -- but I didn't know how he was going to work or what he was going to be like. It absolutely jolts you and wakes you up, but after a while, if you can go with it, I found myself starting to do it with him. It was fantastic and really very invigorating. It was very physical feeling, like a contact sport, even.
Have you ever felt yourself having that kind of effect on other actors?
No. [Laughs] I work very differently, and also, I'm very unobtrusive on the way other people work. You know what I mean? I'm very sensitive to somebody else if they need to work a certain way. That's cool with me; I can learn to adapt to it. I don't think I have that kind of effect, but I don't know. I don't know, maybe I have. I remember doing this movie called The Hawk is Dying with Michelle Williams, and I remember her one day going, "You're really out of your f*cking mind in this thing." But I don't know if that was a positive effect on her or not. We had a good time together, though.
What is your trick -- your method, if any -- to playing drunk?
Oh. I've done it a lot; I've done it on stage a lot, actually. It's funny. I've played a lot of drunks. It's a fascinating subject, actually -- playing a drunk. One of the baseline things that always works when playing drunk, and that's that when somebody's drunk, they're always desperately doing everything they can to not appear to be drunk. So that always sets up a nice tension.
But the drunkenness is as individual as the personality you're playing, and there are all kinds of different drunks. This guy needed to be funnier drunk, in some ways. I don't love the way I do the drunk all the time in this; there are some moments where I feel like it's too cartoony and jokey. But some people get drunk, and they get more sober seeming. They're a mess until they get a drink, and then things start to go the opposite way. It just depends on what it is. I can't give you anything specifically... I could talk endlessly about it! That's the problem.
This interview ran previously as part of Movieline 2010 Toronto Film Festival coverage.
[Top photo of Paul Giamatti at the Toronto International Film Festival: George Pimentel/Getty Images]