Swan features Cassel as Thomas Leroy, an demanding ballet director who takes a special interest in one of his prized dancers, Nina (Natalie Portman), casting her as the Swan Queen in his "stripped-down, visceral and real" interpretation of Swan Lake. The intense barrage of scenes that follows bends reality (not to mention genre) for both Nina and the viewer, culminating in a horror film as much as a classical ballet. Movieline spoke to Cassel about his role in Black Swan, his minor change of tune about the buzz for the film (not to mention his performance), when it's OK to take the money and run, and why movie writers should stop seeing so many movies.
I'm not sure Thomas always realizes some of the positions that he puts people in. Is it fair to classify him as a jerk?
Well, he's isn't very responsible for people's feelings, because he thinks what he's aiming for is more important. And I've noticed that the people that I've met in this business or otherwise, they're all like him. Look, this guy is 40-something -- he's my age -- he has this beautiful apartment, but there's nobody living with him. He has no kids. All he has is his art form, his passion. Because that's the only thing he has, he thinks that he's allowed to be very demanding with people. And that's how they are, most of the people that I've met in that particular industry.
So is he based on anyone in particular that you've come across?
My father was in A Chorus Line when I was a kid, and he was playing Zach. Zach was a character who's actually Thomas Leroy like. So I've seen a lot of rehearsals, of course. And I remember really well Mike Bennett was the actual director, and I guess that's the closest person I've seen to my character. He was really a manipulative -- same kind of guy.
Have you yourself ever emulated Thomas? Maybe taking something too far, professionally, that hurt people along the way?
A little bit, but like for stupid stuff. You know, sometimes you get a little hot on a set because you don't have time, or you don't know because you have new lines and you don't know how it's going to happen. And, suddenly, the people around you don't follow and they're slow and they're trying to hide stuff because they're not ready. And then, yeah, it did happen to me; I talked bad and people were upset. When things like that happen you're a little lost and you need help.
In August you spoke to us for a fairly comprehensive interview...:**
Yes, for Mesrine.
So... what's new?
[Laughs] Not much.
In that interview Black Swan was brought up and you said, "It's an independent movie, and I think those can be hard sells nowadays." Now we're here and it doesn't seem like a tough sell at all. Are you surprised with all of the buzz?
Well, I'm happy more than surprised. The thing is that the movie is more than what I thought it would be. It's much more accessible. I really thought we were aiming for a Roman Polanski type of film, like The Tenant -- a psychological thriller, maybe more in the vein of Pi. And there is a part like that, in the apartment with the mother and everything. But on the other hand, it's visually super-rich. It's gorgeous, actually, with the CGI effects and everything. So the movie becomes like a real horror film and people get scared, and that's not a hard sell. That's what people like.
I'm glad you said "horror film" because after I walked out, that's how I would describe it. It's one of the scariest films I've seen in awhile.
You're scared but it lures you back. It plays with you, but you can't take your eyes off of it because you don't know what's going to happen. It's good!
Your line in the film, "The was me seducing you, when it should be the other way around." Can you recommend that as a pick up line?
Well, you have to be very confident. It really depends... you can try? It's pretty risky.
But by the time we got to that scene, I didn't feel Thomas was interested in Nina sexually. There were all tests for her.
Oh, it's not about getting laid, of course. That's not what he's looking at. I don't really think he cares about that. If a woman can't get where he thinks she can go, he's not interested. Maybe at the end of the movie he would be able to fall in love with her, because she's as good as he thought.
You have this large body of pretty amazing work in France. Does it bother you that if you're recognized on the street in the U.S., someone's probably going to say, "Hey, you're the guy from Oceans 12"?
I'm really proud of Oceans 12. Of course, you do an Oceans movie, you get known all over the world. It's an incredibly powerful medium: It's a Hollywood-identified blockbuster. The cool thing about it is that it looks like it, but it's not. Because, at the end of the day, Soderbergh and Clooney and Brad Pitt and all of those guys, they're really close. And they're really having fun. It's almost like when you rob a bank, it's a... stick-up? Is it "stick-up"?
Yes.
I'm not sure the expression. Anyway, they just came to rob the bank. They're having fun and they make crazy money, let's go. And they're not stupid, they're stylish. They don't take themselves seriously. So that's my only real experience with celebrity in Hollywood. For me it's people like Aronofsky, Cronenberg... it's really indie.
But you do have quite a few movies with commercial success in the United States. Is it hard for a French actor to do what you've done, here? You can say "independent movies," but those a lot of those films have done really well.
Well, I don't know. I'm trying not to think like that. OK, of course, when you're French and you have an accent and everything, I feel like an alien here. Where in France I totally know how the system works -- I grew up in it. I know how to react, I know the TV shows, I know the critics -- I know everybody. Here, it's bigger, but it's fun. I take it as a game. I just do what I want to do. I'm not desperate to come and work in America, because I have a career in France and I'm having a lot of fun with it. I only come here when it's interesting, but I don't depend on it.
It must be nice to go back and forth as you please. Was that a goal, or is it not that calculated?
I grew up like that. I spent a whole year in New York without going back to France. And I always came back because my mother was living in New York since I was 13. So I went to summer camps, hang out at the Roxy, go to class for ballet, so I always had part of my life in New York. So I wasn't waiting for it, but I kind of felt like it would happen, somehow.
How long were you in ballet?
Seven years.
So that was very good knowledge to have for this film.
I wasn't a professional but, actually, I started ballet because I was going to circus school. And in the tradition of circus school, if you do acrobatics and all that, you need to know how to present yourself and carry yourself.
So there's already Oscar buzz swirling. How are you handling that?
It's kind of the first time for me. It's new. For example the Oscar race and those Q&As and all that, it's my first time like that here. So I'm still, let's say, curious. And I'm definitely happy because it doesn't happen all of the time. So, wherever it goes, it's always good. So, no, it doesn't really put any pressure on me. I'm just happy to be here. You usually struggle to have that kind of attention so, you know, let's just enjoy it.
I try to not know as little as possible about a movie before I see it.
That's the best way, but it's hard.
Considering the amount of films that I see, it's nice when one like Black Swan catches me off guard.
Let me ask you, how many movies do you see a week?
Not as many as some people who do this, but usually around three a week -- sometimes more.
I don't think it's healthy. When you watch too many movies, it's becoming normal -- even if it's a bad movie, it's a really hard thing to make.
I see your point, and I don't really disagree, but how does someone cover movies for a living without seeing them?
But I know, I guess every job has a paradox. There's one: You love movies so much that you want to write about them. Then you see too much and you can't really spend the time it deserves sometimes. It becomes normal. And I'm not talking about you in particular, of course. And I'm talking for myself, too. It's like acting: If I act too much, if I make too many movies, then I'm not enjoying it the same way. And my main job is to enjoy acting, because when you enjoy what you do -- when you act -- it's fun and surprising for yourself and for the others. If you lose that, then you're doing a job. And then I really don't see the point.
Has there been a point on your career when you thought that you were doing too much?
Yeah. As a younger actor I had delusions. I would dream of Scorsese and De Niro; I would meet people and it would be like this and it would change moviemaking in France and Paris would become the center of the world. Stuff like that. And then you lose your friends and you realize that it's not exactly like that. And I thought I needed to be friends with somebody to work properly with that person. And then you realize that it's not exactly like that. You can not like somebody and still work with them very well.
Would you describe that as jaded?
I think when you work, whatever you do, if you work for the wrong reasons you start to somehow lose a bit of respect for yourself. You know when you're working for the money. If I do stuff for money, I know what it is.
Do you have an example of that?
In terms of movies? No. Actually, I never work in movies for money. I'm glad when I get well-paid, but it's not always the case, trust me. Otherwise I need to make money and I will prostitute myself out in a different way in something that is not my media. I will, I don't know, appear in a club or whatever. Just try to make easy money so I can stay with the same rectitude in my choices. Because I think what really makes a difference with an actor is the kind of choices he makes. I think it's really important; it's the most fun part, too. If you don't make choices, then I don't see the point, really.
You mention other media. Does that include advertising campaigns you're a part of?
I know... But the way the system is... OK, back in the '70s I'm not sure Pacino and De Niro had to be a part of like a huge blockbuster to be respected. Now, most of the actors, if they want to have access to the really great directors, the sharp ones, they're going to have to do a bit of bullsh*t to have a bit of weight in terms of bankability. So it's a little bit the other way around, you know. Where in France it's not exactly like that. It can be a little snobbish, as we know...
What? I've never heard such a thing.
Oh, come on. It's true, by the way. [Laughs] It's like, you don't talk about money; French people don't talk about money because it's vulgar, almost. It's not true, but that's the attitude. So at the end of the day, you can be very respected and well-paid -- strangely enough -- if you make high profile, artsy movies. I'm one of those guys.
Appreciate the time, sir.
Thanks. I'm sure I'll talk to you guys again next week. [Laughs]