The film follows Carlos (a.k.a. Ilich Ramírez Sánchez) through his years-long reign of terror on five continents, capturing both the wired political spirit of his times and the existential turbulence that came with being one of the world's most wanted (and elusive) men. Carlos's ambition is reflected by both Assayas and Ramírez themselves, with the latter telling Movieline during his recent trip to the New York Film Festival how the antihero became something of a way of life for the better part of a year. That'll happen, apparently, with a character this rich -- especially when you move into a stage of everyday existence "beyond jet lag."
[Carlos premieres this week on Sundance Channel; the full, 330-minute "roadshow edition" of the film runs Oct. 15 - Nov. 2 at New York's IFC Center before venturing to other cities.]
This is obviously a very unique film, and one you took to Cannes before bringing it to New York. Filmmakers and actors always want to get an audience's reaction, but how is that sense affected by being stretched over five-and-a-half hours?
Well, first it's very flattering to begin with. One of the most interesting things about festivals is that people who come to them normally are people who care about movies, who care moviemaking, who are open to new concepts, who want to be surprised, who want to be shocked, who want to be touched. It's like a trained audience who are looking for a thrill, and it's exciting because the energy is different. I don't know. It's like any other specific gathering of people who come together to discuss or enjoy something that is coming to all of them. It's great. It's like an agora kind of thing; we hear all these changing opinions, this debating. It's beautiful, and also very enriching. Telluride was also the same thing. Cannes, Telluride and New York Film Festival. For me as a young filmmaker, it's great to be surrounded by such talented people. In all areas, too -- not just the filmmakers themselves, but also the critics and intellectuals and general public who have amazing takes on the movies.
When you're making a film like this, what is you sense of it when you're in it? In a 90-minute or two-hour feature, I'd think you can actually get your head around the scope in a way that five hours-plus makes impossible? Do you know where you're headed?
No. But because of the way this movie was conceived and the way this movie was made... This movie was like an extreme happening. We didn't have a specific idea of what the movie was going to be when we started the movie. We discovered the movie -- we discovered the characters -- along the way. I think that feeling of that adrenaline rush -- of dealing with the unknown -- gave an interesting quality to the movie.
Did you feel like you were taking even more of a risk?
Absolutely. And you have no choice. This movie is very particular in many ways -- the way it was conceived, the way it is, the subject matter, the amount of languages, the way those languages were played in such an organic way... like life itself. It was very organic that way. And also the locations. And just the way the movie came together. It was all very unique.
In a role this massive, what kind of support are you looking for from your director?
You know, I couldn't say enough nice things about Olivier in that regard. He's such a sensitive director. He knows exactly what he wants, but at the same time he's so open to different proposals. He's so open to let himself be surprised by what the actors bring to the set and to the story. He's like the curious, avid kid who hides somewhere and watches you with that inner feeling, but all the while making you feel like you're totally protected. Olivier is more like a sculptor who gathers the right elements for his story to be told, and then he just shapes his story, you know? He would never tell you if this is a good choice or a bad choice. He would just invite you to try again. Not even, "Try something else," but just, "Do it again."
The same way?
Yeah. Or... I don't know. Just, "Do it again." He would never give any restricting quality to any of his comments, and that, to me, was really interesting. I can't remember Olivier ever telling me, "Do it differently." Or telling anyone, 'Do it differently." He would just say, "Do it again" -- meaning that, "OK, let's get into this moment and let's bring something fresh out of it, whatever way you're working in your mind." Which means that he has a lot of trust and a lot of respect for his actors, and it's something we all really appreciated.
Is that a style you grew to prefer -- or that you would prefer to pursue in future films?
No, it was just the way the film is and the way Olivier is. He never gives you restrictive instructions. He trusts you. It's very flattering. I always felt protected by him, though he was not hand-holding me, or us, through the movie. He has this amazing ability to describe human beings and human nature without explaining or justifying it. He has this ability to tell specifics about characters without being explicit or getting introspective.
That's fascinating. I do imagine when you approach a guy like Carlos the Jackal, you need to approach those details without judgment -- but without internalizing too much, either.
Yeah, that's true. That's the way I hope and I wish to approach all my characters. At the end of the day it's not about me -- it's about them. I've said before that our craft as actors must be at the service of our characters, not the other way around. You should embrace your characters if you're going to take them on. You should embrace them with all their light, all their darkness, and not try to impose your own perception or ideas or judgments about the world on your characters. That would be like reassuring yourself in front of everybody, and I don't think that's what acting is about.
That said, how much do you really want or need to know about Carlos when approaching him on this scale? How much freedom do you want to inform him yourself?
Actually, I was discovering things about Carlos as I was portraying Carlos.
Really? Like emotional things?
Yeah. It's not that I knew everything about Carlos, and then I portrayed whatever preconceived ideas I had. I think it was the same way for Olivier. For some reason we were not sure -- we just did. It was like a soccer game. Of course I did my homework; it was actually kind of academic in comparison to other experiences. I learned and tried to read about as much political history as possible in order to understand the time the characters lived in. I watched and I read as much documentation as was available on Carlos to understand the media perception around this character. I tried to have interviews with people who were close with him -- including his family -- to get a grasp of that input and a grasp of that dimension. Then I poured all of that into the character Olivier had already written, full of complexity and contradictions, and just went, "Go."
Didn't Carlos himself disavow the project?
Yeah, he wasn't pleased. He wasn't pleased about the whole project -- people making a movie about him. Which I can't blame him for. I can understand that. He's entitled to an opinion; he's entitled to argue against it.
It's interesting to hear you say you understand that. If he views the project with suspicion, does that increase the pressure to do it "right"? Or does it affect you at all?
Absolutely not. No. Because his life -- or what could have been his life, because in the end we'll never know the real and total truth -- and the events that might have happened are public knowledge. They're our history. They're there. It's available. It's on the Internet, it's in the newspapers of the time. It's just there. And this movie is based on very accurate research, but also on speculation and invention and fiction. It's not a biography.
Going through his life during your research, what was the one scene or situation you most looked forward to portraying?
That's interesting. [Long pause] I haven't thought about that. [Pause] By telling you this, I don't want to be unfair to other moments. It's hard.
You're entitled to a favorite!
It's not a favorite! There are so many favorites, but I can't get into details with all of them. I think that when he joins the Palestinian movement -- the PFLP -- that was really interesting. Not only was it pivotal to tell the story, but it also happened in the country where it happened in reality. It happened in the neighborhood where that really took place. And not only that, but the actor who was playing [PFLP radical Wadie Haddad] was a guy who knew Wadie Haddad, and who had fully lived the struggle of that time. We were surrounded by them. We could even see the holes of bullets in the building where we were doing that [scene]. Apparently there was a bombing going on in Beirut on the exact day. That kind of stuff.
That's intense.
It's intense! Or the minutes prior to the OPEC General Conference. It took place in Vienna, and we were actually in Vienna. So we would probably take the same streetcar these guys took. Actually, the meeting prior -- the scene where he's planning all the details? -- that happened at the Intercontinental in Vienna, which was the actual hotel where that meeting took place. The party where he celebrates his 30th birthday? There were waiters in Hungary -- in Budapest -- who waited on his party. The party took place in the exact spot within that hotel. So... you know? You can imagine. I knew we were going to go to those places, so I just thought, "Wow."
Filmmaking is exhausting by any standard, but when you're traveling to all these locations and doing the kind of globetrotting you guys were doing, how does jet lag impact you?
You go beyond jet lag. You live in another state beyond jet lag. Actually, the extraordinary state would be the non-jet-lagged state. You just live on jet lag.
How does it affect psychology?
It's exhausting. But it's part of the job.
You've been acting for a while, obviously, but I think it's fair to call this a professional milestone.
Oh, definitely. Definitely.
How do you follow something like Carlos?
I have no idea. No idea. I'm excited, though. I'm excited about what might come my way.
Is this your role of a lifetime?
It's definitely an amazing experience for me. In all ways -- professionally, personally. I cannot deny the impact that this movie has had on my life. I lived three months in the Middle East, just to begin with. The amount of information and understanding transformed all of us. You're there. Although you're shooting a movie, you're not indifferent to what's going on around you. You take a lot of input and information, and it helps you to understand the world better -- to deal better with the world. Shooting a movie in nine countries and five languages in a year was an experience that has the ability to transform everybody's life.
[Top photo: Sean Gallup/Getty Images]