What's happening?
Oh, you know. Insanity.
You don't say.
Yeah. I brought my baby out to Toronto for the first time.
How are you feeling about that right now?
I was feeling great until I got here. I was feeling really good about it; the film had had such a good reception in the New York Times. It's been rough! Things are starting to turn right now, but I think this is not what people expected to see.
What do you think they expected to see?
Probably something more traditional. That was the main criticism of Milk, which was that it was incredibly traditional. But to me, you've got to make the style match what the film needs to be. So with Milk, it was the idea of, "Let's give an openly gay guy the all-American treatment," which meant a really traditional narrative. Name it Milk -- like Patton or JFK. Just name it after him. But if you ever saw any of my really early stuff, it was rather experimental. So I think maybe there was that expectation -- that it would be something more traditional. I remember reading some of the early [reviews], and it made it sound like this was supposed to be some political drama about a guy running for office. Not really! It's about a mother's son. Tonally and aesthetically, I wanted it to look how my childhood felt, and come at it from that perspective -- the perspective of the child and the people I was raised by.
One in particular: an aunt who was a paranoid schizophrenic who had this incredibly buoyant, childlike personality. The things she couldn't control were sound and some of the paranoid delusions. And she didn't want to be medicated. But what she could control was color and light, and so I thought, "That's definitely how I'm going to control this film as well -- in a way that's from their perspective." [Pauses] I love it. I really do.
I love it, too, seriously. I was really surprised by the reaction. So many filmmakers shy away from the word "melodrama" anymore, but you really went for it, and to great effect.
I mean, the way I grew up was extreme. Not only were we in Texas in this Mormon enclave, but you throw in the military, and all the archetypes are blown up. Everything's bigger in Texas -- that is true. So I said, "Well, why not?" The truth is that it's probably closer to my subjective reality of it than if I'd just made it a straight drama. Things were incredibly funny. Things were childlike and naïve and colorful.
But tonally, anyway, things in this movie turn on a dime. Was that part of growing up -- that family sensibility -- something else you wanted to capture?
Yeah, the chaos. I thought at any given point when you're in that atmosphere, things will take a turn -- and generally for the worse. It's because people are making desperate decisions. I was surrounded by people making incredibly stupid choices, putting themselves and their loved ones at risk. The goal was always to get the American Dream. Right now is a really good example of that: The middle class, the lower-middle class is struggling. They want to achieve the American Dream, but there is very little opportunity to do so. That's the environment I grew up in. And you start making these wild, irresponsible choices to get there. So at any given moment growing up, I never knew what was going to come down next. Is a parent going to leave? Are we going to get arrested because we're shoplifting in order to have things? Who's going to drop dead from whatever drug might be going around?
At face value, whenever I describe the things that were going on in my life, people will get this glum look on their face and feel really badly. I always say to them I found it extraordinary. I loved my growing-up years; I found it really funny. It was probably the happiest time of my life. I felt very liberated. You worry about your survival, and the drama going on in the film, and the drama going on in the film was the same drama going on in my young mind, which was how do we get to a better place? How do I help mom? My mom is disabled in a different way. There was always a lightness and a love to it.
Virginia has a fascinating style. How did her costumes come together, and what exactly would you call it?
It was just working with [costume designer] Danny Glicker a lot. We went through thrift stores, where I think she would shop, or Wal-Mart, where she might get her accessories -- stuff that was affordable or easily found. Things she had in the closet from her family, but always with the idea of Southern aspiration, which is something that I grew up around. They all want to be Scarlett O'Hara. They all want to be Gone With the Wind, in my experience. We were looking at what would feel, in her mind, "This is better than who I am right now"? That manifests itself in color. She might be drawn to things that are dated or might have that Southern Gothic feel to them -- and not know better than to not wear it.
To be honest, it probably feels bumped to a New York audience, or an L.A. or Toronto audience. But go to Virginia or go to Louisiana, and it's not that far off. In fact, she's probably better-dressed than she might ought to be. It's Southern Gothic 2.0.
So let's say those coastal audiences -- the so-called "sophisticates" -- do just assume it's bumped as opposed to contemplating it might reflect a way of life elsewhere in the country. Does that offend you? Hurt you? Piss you off?
It definitely doesn't piss me off.
What if some of them accuse you of exploiting or mischaracterizing her in some way?
I haven't heard that yet. I hope I don't; maybe I will. But to say that it's too bumped -- to me -- would be like me saying, "I want you to go out there and live it." Because it is extreme, and it's extreme out there for a great many people. It's funny: I've shown this in New York, where it goes over really well. I don't know why it does; we've had really good success there. The test screenings are fantastic. I don't know why. But I think a lot of people who live in the South are really going to find it true. They're not going to find the colors even that extreme. I think they'll find it less bumped. It feels bumped to the people who haven't grown up in that world or lived in that world.
Well, it's obviously a heightened universe wherever you live.
It's certainly heightened -- on purpose. If you took a still photograph, sure this would be heightened compared to that. But if you went there and lived there for a few weeks, it's going to feel a lot like my movie. If you go to Lake Province, Louisiana, for a couple of weeks, you'e going to be like, "My God. This world is out there." It feels extreme in that way; people are dreaming big dreams even though they don't have the means -- or even the decision-making skills -- to get there.
OK, so: The Mormon thing. You're definitely going for it here. What is left for you to say about your Mormon upbringing and its effect not just on just, but on culture and communities?
Oh, I think there's so much more to say. It's funny, because people bring up the Mormon thing, and that's when I realize it has all this Mormon stuff in it. I mean, for one, if I'm going to talk about a religion, it's the one I'm going to talk about. It's the one I grew up in! It's what's going to be discussed in a bedroom scene when they're talking about their future lives together. I don't feel like I'm attacking or judging in any way. Probably not to any devout Mormons, because they don't like these things discussed publicly, but to an ex-Mormon or a private Mormon watching it, it's not untrue. These are the things they believe in.
So Sheriff Tipton is not a Mormon hypocrite -- he's just a hypocrite who happens to be Mormon?
[Pauses] Yeah. He's hypocritical because he's having an affair. But what he says to Virgnia in the bedroom is true -- it's what Mormons believe. I'm not talking about Warren Jeffs and the fundamentalist Mormons; regular mainstream Mormons still believe in polygamy in the afterlife. It's what you aspire to: You will have multiple wives on your own planet in the afterlife. This is what Mitt Romney believes. I love this question, because it really reveals to me how little most of America knows about the fastest-growing religion in their country. This is what these folks believe in, and I don't mind talking about.
You don't mind talking about it, but you don't mind taking them down. That's what it seems like you're aspiring to in this film.
Really? Because he's hypocritical?
He likes to keep his Mormon underwear on during fetish play with his mistress! That's a pretty specific reference.
Right. It's more just based on my experience. I know that Mormon underwear was always on. My mom had hers on all the time; my father had his on all the time. It's what you do, and if it seems odd and strange, it's because it is. It never seemed that way to me growing up. I tried on my mom's Mormon underwear all the time.
Really?
It's something you believe you will get if you're a good priesthood holder. If you've grown up and you're 16 years old and you've had your training, you get that blessed Mormon underwear. And you do believe you're protected in some way.
Does Virginia believe her son is protected when she steals the missionary's underwear and gives it to her son?
Absolutely. I think that Tipton was a true believer, and he's rationalized it as many Mormon men do. He's rationalized his behavior because he has this belief system. The founder of the Mormon Church, Joseph Smith, said polygamy is the way. Three wives? You're at the top of the heap! So here's a man who's probably a bit conflicted: It's right in the future, but right now, politically and historically, it's not. And, like many men, he has the desire to cheat -- have a second spouse or something. Or maybe not "spouse," but you know. Men are men, by and large. But Brigham Young and Joseph Smith preached that the more women you have, the closer to heaven you are. So I just think he's conflicted in a way that a lot of Mormon men are. I don't see that a judgment of the church. I just see it as the way the church is and what it's struggling with right now.
Considering the polarized reactions of the last week, are you--
It's not even the last week! The New York Times loved it. I got all these phone calls from people. The test screenings were through the roof. [Laughs] It's like the last two days.
OK, so about the last two days. Does that excite you? Do you want to continue pushing those buttons or maybe come back with something more mainstream and, well, traditional?
I'm going to just keep doing my thing. I feel the style of this film is absolutely right for this film. I absolutely believe that. I love this movie. I respect their opinions, and I can see where they're coming from. But when you come to this movie, you've got to let go of a lot of preconceptions and know you're in for a bit of a ride stylistically. You're not going to be on a traditional narrative path. It's not a three-act movie. Stuff's going to be coming at you from every direction, twisting and turning, and some of it is going to feel really unbelievable, because that's how it felt to me. I thought that was all right -- that honoring of life experience. And if people don't like it, you know, they should maybe go see whatever's more in line traditionally with where things are headed. This is not that movie.
But I really hope it appeals to the people I made it for. There's a scene of people who want to see you break the rules; there's a scene of people who want to see you go for it -- hit or miss. And god bless my producer Christine Vachon and Gus Van Sant. Gus was really a fan of going for it, so that meant a lot. And it's meant a lot even in the last couple of days when he said, "No, no, no -- you did the right thing." But I also think there's a crowd that hasn't had their voices heard yet, and that's that art-loving Southern Aspirational crowd. I think there is that crowd, and we discount them when we call the South "stupid" and make fun of them. I say put this in theaters out there and see what happens.
[Top photo: Amy Graves/WireImage]