Having a conversation with Terry Gilliam is not unlike watching one of his films: In either medium, he likes to throw a lot of ideas out there, and he'll even recreate his trademark fisheye lensing for you by leaning forward to whisper something he knows he shouldn't. In short, it's an experience, as is Gilliam's latest effort, The Imaginarium of Doctor Parnassus. The onscreen story involves a mad doctor (Christopher Plummer), a devilish antagonist (Tom Waits), and a mysterious amnesiac (Heath Ledger); the offscreen story was dominated by Ledger's death midway into production, which resulted in a rewrite that finds Johnny Depp, Jude Law, and Colin Farrell subbing in for the character in scenes Ledger had yet to shoot.
In a wide-ranging, cuss-heavy, finger-pointing discussion with Movieline, Gilliam opened up about Ledger, his problems with Hollywood, the Oscars, Fox Searchlight, The Departed...well, let's just say that there were few topics that went untouched. Enjoy!
Dr. Parnassus has this creative gift that he wants to share with the world, but the world isn't interested. It must be something you can relate to when you had Parnassus finished and secured a berth for it at Cannes, and yet it took months to find a buyer.
Funny, that, isn't it? You look at this film...I've seen it enough times with a big audience and it plays brilliantly. Yet, there was nobody willing to buy it at Cannes.
With the scale it has, the special effects, the stars...what problems were you running into?
Back in April, before Cannes, we had a screening at the DGA for the buyers and they just came out bemused. They said, "It doesn't make sense." What this film does is it tells you about the people in this town that are in the business of buying and selling and deciding what the public wants. It's pathetic -- a child could see this film! "How do we market it?" they said. What are you talking about! You've got Heath Ledger's last movie and you've got three A-list stars. What more do you want? And that's just the most crass way to say it.
Are you happy with how things turned out?
I'm glad that we went with Fox Searchlight...wait, Fox Searchlight? [Laughs] That was as Freudian as it comes. There's a long story behind that, but anyway. No, I'm glad we went with Sony Classics. There guys are good, and I actually like them. Still, where were the others? That's what I want to know. Half the people came out of that screening -- and Fox Searchlight was one of them, they had been so excited and sending emails before, like, "Oh, we want it!" I actually thought there would be a deal the night after the film was shown, but it was over at that point. "How do we market it?" Well fucking hell, learn how to do your job! That's the first thing.
You've had problems with getting your films made and distributed to your liking before. Have you seen changes in attitudes? Do new problems just replace the old ones?
The attitudes are just becoming more and more bureaucratic. The fear of making a mistake has become real bad. In corporate culture, where are the guys at the top who used to have some character? I didn't like a lot of them, but they were alive. They were actually human beings with passion for film! What happens now is that we're trying to raise the money for this thing -- and I think we only wanted $4 million from America, and we'd get the rest elsewhere -- and we couldn't get it. I was saying, "Wait. Sometime in 2008, we'll have The Dark Knight, the Joker, Heath's gonna be the biggest star on the planet, and we'll be coming out after that." They couldn't make that simple calculation. Now it seems like it takes Goldman Sachs several months to run the numbers. It's a way of avoiding responsibility, like when they do NRG screenings and say, "This is a science." It's not a science, it's bullshit!
Did they do an NRG screening for Parnassus?
No, of course not, there was no money. I mean, thank God there was no studio or any of that involved. It was a UK production with sales in Japan and France and all those places. Can you imagine what this film would have been like with studio people involved? Heath's introduction to the movie, where he's [glimpsed in a noose] under the bridge? "Well, we can't do that." I mean, it's just crazy. That's my problem with them: they're frightened, they're overpaid, and there's too many of them.
You first worked with Heath on The Brothers Grimm, and in between that and Parnassus, he had the one-two punch of Brokeback Mountain and The Dark Knight. How did he change between your two movies?
He was just getting better and more confident. I don't know if he actually changed -- he was having more fun, probably. He just loved the Joker. I talked to him a lot while they were shooting and he was like a kid: "You won't believe what I got away with today!" [Laughs] I read things subsequently where he said that it was on Grimm that he began to have fun while making a movie, and I think that was a big leap for him. I thought his work on Grimm was magnificent, but in the reviews, he's barely mentioned. Nothing changes, as Tom Waits says. People don't seem to recognize what good acting is. It's like Marty Scorsese getting an Oscar for The Departed -- I'm afraid the films before that were the great movies.
How much do those award considerations come into play when you make a movie that isn't a huge studio tentpole?
I mean, Marty didn't need it. The Departed had already done well. It's great when smaller films win an award because then they've got recognition, but when big studio films get them, it's just a chance to make a bit more money. I'm certainly not against studio films making money -- you hope that if they make money then, they'll be a bit bolder about where they spent the money. I'm happy to live off the scraps from the table, but that doesn't seem to be what happens. The film makes money, they want more of the same thing!
But would it be satisfying to you if this film did well and then you could rub it in the faces of the studios that didn't buy it?
There's always that satisfaction. [Laughs] I never just guess what a film will or won't do -- I'm always too cautious. When it does well, that's always a great moment, but until the people speak, I won't know.
I wonder if you don't secretly cherish that fight when it comes to your films. It reminds me of how Parnassus keeps bargaining with Tom Waits, this agent of the devil, but whenever Waits has the upper hand and could go for that killing blow, he'll redraw the stakes. He doesn't want the game to end.
That's exactly what they're trying to do. You can't win completely -- then there's nothing else to gamble with! They're immortals who need each other, and if one wins decisively, then the game is over. They're gamblers at heart, and it's the game that gives each identity. Without each other, they don't exist.
I've read interviews with other directors who said that Heath Ledger was actually somewhat insecure about his acting ability. Did you see that at all?
No, he was enjoying himself so much. He was flying, energized, coming up with new things every day. That happened on Grimm, and then Brokeback Mountain was hard because he'd had such a good time on Grimm. I don't know who the people were who found him difficult. Come on, tell me.
There was just a reputation he had, that he didn't think he was doing a good job on set, that he didn't know if he was capable enough.
The fact is, Heath was always very self-critical. He just wanted to learn his craft and get better. That's what was interesting about him, his exploration. Somehow on this one, he dug in very early and decided what he was going to do, and then he was just flying.
Can you tell me about casting up-and-comers like Andrew Garfield and Lily Cole? You have an eye for young talent -- like you cast Jodelle Ferland in Tideland, and now she's in the upcoming Twilight film.
It's about time. Look how long it took them! She should have been nominated for an Academy Award for Tideland, there's no question. Where were these people? You're in the land of the blind here, and a guy with one eye can see a lot. With Lily, she looked extraordinary, I met her and liked her and she was confident and willing to learn. Looking back, she was probably the biggest gamble, but it paid off and worked. I always need a little bit of danger like that, otherwise it's kind of boring. Andrew put three scenes on tape and sent them in, and each one was three different ways. It was like, "Wow!" It was scary, the choices were so great. I think he's phenomenal.
One last thing I wanted to ask you: There was that Modest Mouse video that Heath directed that was completed posthumously. I had read that you were involved initially, can you tell me how?
He was working on it with a guy named Daniel Auber, who was the storyboard artist on the script. Heath was in London for the Joker, so Daniel came over to work and I gave them the boardroom to my effects company. They were busy working there and I was throwing my two cents in every so often. Actually, if you look at the sun in that video, I am the sun. [Laughs] So they were working in the boardroom and that was the day that I was doing some special effects shows for the guys, and that's when Heath slipped me that note asking, "Can I play Tony in Parnassus?" It was magical.
[Photo Credit: Joe Kohen/WireImage]