She's the best thing about the glossy new comedy The Bachelor, but it's in small, independent films that Suddenly Susan star Brooke Shields hopes to show what she's made of. Here, Brooke talks to writer/director James Toback about rap, religion, Republicans, remarriage and the upcoming film she did with him, Black and White.
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When I was putting together the cast for my film Black and White, a cinematic excursion into the hip-hop phenomenon and the new ways in which white and black kids are mixing, most of the roles fell into place fairly quickly with people ranging from Ben Stiller and Robert Downey Jr. to Mike Tyson and several members of the Wu-Tang Clan. The one essential character that remained uncast was the wife of the gay character Robert played, a video journalist who is making, within the film, a documentary on white prep school teens who long to become part of the hip-hop world. When I learned that Brooke Shields's agent had called to say Brooke was interested in joining the cast, I was surprised and intrigued.
Brooke Shields's entire career has been the quintessence of wholesome American life and she is now at the center of that most centrist of American entertainment forums, the TV sitcom. My own directorial work, comprising eight films from Fingers to Two Girls and a Guy, seemed, to paraphrase Henry Miller, "a gob of spit in the face of" everything Brooke Shields appeared to represent. Obviously I had to meet with her.
I was immediately charmed by Brooke's intelligence, good humor and innate decency, and I soon decided this was one of those odd conjunctions from which fruitful collaborations so often arise. I was not disappointed. Brooke improvised her way into the creation of an original, complex character, and her performance in the film is astonishing. When we were shooting, one scene in particular brought home to me how good she really was.
This was the set-up: As Brooke's character was filming with her Minicam, Robert's character had come on to Mike Tyson, and Mike had choked him and knocked him to the floor. My direction to Brooke was to respond as she wished. What she did was approach Mike tentatively, then more confidently. Mike said to her, "I've been in the penitentiary. They say I raped someone. I don't need no white bitch causing me trouble." Instead of being intimidated, Brooke looked him in the eyes seductively and told him he was beautiful. The whole scene was such a remarkable piece of improvisation that I decided to begin my interview with Brooke by asking her what she was thinking while she was doing it.
JAMES TOBACK: So, what went on in your mind in the scene with Mike Tyson, and why did you react as you did?
BROOKE SHIELDS: I began by trying to diffuse Mike's anger and apologize for Robert's advances. The strange part was discerning what was improv and what was reality. I chose to believe it all as reality. I knew he wasn't acting, yet the role-play itself had incited raw emotion and anger in him. All of a sudden he appeared beautiful and sad. He only softened when I told him he looked beautiful. I think he thought I might be lying, but I wasn't. I wasn't coming on to him, either. What transpired between us was a mix of sympathy, fear, attraction and the maternal.
Q: You did feel fear?
A: Yes. I was afraid he could turn at any minute, but fear didn't override my desire to be different in his eyes, different than the "white bitch" he accused me of being.
Q: What comes across in the film is an odd mixture of seductiveness and affection that clearly moves him and confuses him.
A: Isn't that the power that lies at the heart of being maternal?
Q: Certainly in oedipal relationships! In any case, what made you so eager to leap into a film with this kind of improvisation in it, when all of your previous acting experiences had relied so firmly on a script?
A: I wanted to see how far I could go unmonitored. My defenses are too readily available to me and I crave being shaken out of safety.
Q: Don't you worry about jeopardizing your "image"?
A: I worry more about not jeopardizing my "image."
Q: What about the general perception of you as the Ivory Snow baby growing up into the quintessential Middle American white princess?
A: I just finished the new Ivory campaign and our main message is one of purity. What seems to be at the heart and soul of all of this--whether it's the Wu-Tang Clan or an Ivory ad--is the raw self with the exterior stripped away.
Q: You wore dreadlocks for the movie. Are you "going black," or is this just a phase?
A: Come on. The truth is I'm not black, but I feel very accepted by the black culture. The music, the style and the general pride move me. Growing up in New York City, the black neighborhoods always represented more of a sense of history and community to me than anything I knew firsthand. I felt more in my own skin wearing dreads than I ever did sporting big '80s hair-dos. I've never felt quite as beautiful as I did wearing dreads. I felt sexy and strong off camera, more accepted and less pristine. It was the most versatile hairstyle I've ever had. If I could, I'd have them all the time. I only wish 20 percent of my hair hadn't fallen out in the process.
Q: I first became aware of you when you were in Pretty Baby, and then again in the "nothing comes between me and my Calvins" ads, both of which were provocative considering that you were, what? Twelve?
A: Twelve and fourteen. Both those cases perfectly represent my innocence at the time.
Q: Are you saying you were innocent of all sexual implications?
A: As far as Pretty Baby is concerned, I grew up seeing the world of prostitution on 42nd Street and Pretty Baby's version of Storyville in the 1910s was a dreamworld by comparison. I saw nothing sordid in it.
Q: What did you think of the prostitutes on 42nd Street?
A: I thought they were alone and unprotected. The girls in Pretty Baby seemed happy, whereas the girls and guys on 42nd Street seemed like sad characters.
Q: Did you have any kind of romantic life back then or were you entirely sheltered?
A: There was a boy I had a crush on back home and he gave me his necklace to wear. But at that point I had only French-kissed a boy once!
Q: Why only once?
A: Because it was really sloppy and he planned it all too much. At a party he asked me if I wanted to go to the back room. He had set up the pillows and closed the blinds. And soon the mother of the house kicked us out.
Q: Do you believe in God?
A: Yes. I was raised Catholic and proceeded by rote for many years. It's not until recently that I began to question the doctrine and begin a more personal relationship with God.
Q: Where is God?
A: Everywhere.
Q: Does God exist in cow shit?
A: I suppose you could trace it back!
Q: Did God exist in Hitler?
A: Absolutely.
Q: Could God have stopped Hitler from existing?
A: The most powerful quality we are given is that of free will.
Q: So, is Dostoyevksy your favorite writer? He said in The Brothers Karamazov, "God and devil are fighting there and the battlefield is the heart of man."
A: Actually, the books that have reached me the most are C.S. Lewis's Mere Christianity, Baudelaire's Fleurs de Mal, Proust's Remembrance of Things Past, and, of course, there's Mutts. I know it's a cartoon, but I learn a lot from Mooch and Earl.
Q: If Baudelaire affected you so much, weren't you tempted to lead a depraved life or at least experiment with drugs?
A: No, Baudelaire incited in me a desire never to settle for mediocrity. I was introduced to him in college through his poems and began to revel in the hidden meanings in his work. It's how he wrote about his life that intrigued me, not how he lived it.
Q: What are you reading right now?
A: A book called Angle of Repose. It deals in architectural terms with the idea that everything has its own place of balance.
Q: All other things being equal, what's most likely to affect you, a poem, a novel or a film? A: A film. I'm completely absorbed by film.
Q: What's your favorite movie?
A: I don't have one. I love Shadowlands and The Madness of King George and Mrs. Brown and The Spanish Prisoner. I'll see anything except horror, and I always enjoy laughing, like with Waiting for Guffman. Ask me again next week.
Q: What about painting?
A: I love oils of naked people! Especially from the '40s, and of men from behind. Don't ask me why. I love the naked form. In my house I have original paintings from mostly unknowns, still lifes and flowers.
Q: How does your taste run in music?
A: I like a variety. Bette Midler, Mozart, Van Morrison, Eagle Eye Cherry.
Q: What did you learn from working with the Wu-Tang Clan?
A: That their idea of "keeping it real" is what I strive for as an actress. That the stereotype is one of the worst forms of prejudice. That we all want to be heard and to make a difference. By example, they taught me to embrace my own uniqueness. Method Man and Power are very seductive human beings.
Q: What was your take on rap music and how did it change?
A: I've always liked the rhythm of rap, but some of the lyrics were unsettling. I think the more positive rap is quite powerful. I appreciate the versatility in rap more now than I did.
Q: Do you feel that you have any rage at the core of your being?
A: Rage???!! What the fuck do you mean by that, you asshole?? [Breaks up laughing]
Q: So what is it about?
A: I have unexpressed anger, but I'm not sure where it's directed. How can I reconcile my anger with what I attribute to lost opportunity?
Q: What kind of opportunity?
A: To grow as an actress. There's a lack of plan in the charting of my career. Ugh, I hate the way that sounds. I hate people who sob about their pasts, about the injustices. It's a waste. I can't blame my mother or anyone else. And I wouldn't change any of the experiences that formed who I am today. But there was so much effort put into my becoming a star rather than my growing as an actress.
Q: How much did it bother you that, after an auspicious start in Pretty Baby, not too many people took you seriously?
A: Was I frustrated with being knocked for not having talent? I'm just beginning to realize myself as an actress, so I can't expect anyone else to have done so before. I'm frustrated I didn't attack different roles and have more of a plan at an earlier age. It's no one else's fault. I was too busy working! Unfortunately, it was in too many different areas. Endorsements and commercials can be fun and lucrative, but they're time consuming. I've gotten more comfortable as a dramatic actress in the past two years than all the years prior. I'm only now beginning. I admire Natalie Portman and Claire Danes, who keep acting onstage and in films of all sizes. They have terrific talent, but they keep improving.
Q: Was Black and White a leap into the abyss for you? Was it a conscious desire to start up fresh?
A: Yes! I knew I needed to play a part unlike anything anyone had ever seen me do. I get tired of seeing similar sides of myself when there is much more to be tapped into.
Q: You started studying acting in a more formal way a few years ago--what sort of study?
A: I wasn't loyal to any one method. Some teachers were only about the words, and some said forget the words. One focused on Jung and archetypes, complete with hours of meditation and obsessing over "shadow sides." I did interesting work with Second City and comedy improv. I must admit, though, that I've learned the most from working with talented actors and directors. I crave working with great talent now, because I'm clear that I can hold my own.
Q: It was obvious that you relished working with Robert Downey Jr. Are there other actors you're particularly eager to work with?
A: I often can't tell whether I just like to watch certain actors or if I actually want to work with them.
Q: How about directors?
A: I'd love to work with Francis Ford Coppola or Woody Allen or David Mamet, but I haven't been thinking as much about directors as about roles. Plus there are many new young directors I've been meeting that I'd love to work with. I'd love to be directed by Lili Taylor.
Q: You've made a number of independent films that are upcoming besides Black and White. What is your point in embarking on what seems to be a deliberate foray into independent film?
A: Independent films have allowed me to work with people like Gena Rowlands, in a movie called The Weekend, and Robert. The indie world seems to be much more open to overcoming stereotypes and allowing people to take chances. My point is clearly to be an actress. I have no objection to studio films--I did The Bachelor--but I haven't been able to take as many risks in studio films as I have in independents.
Q: Do you take pleasure in knowing that everyone knows who you are?
A: No. The pleasure is usually overshadowed by the lack of privacy. And up until now, I was only recognized for being recognizable. My fame had little to do with my work. That takes a toll. Now it's an ego boost to have people like my show. Yesterday I passed some kids on the street and one of them yelled out, "Hey! It's Susan! Love your show, man!" I said "Hi" and walked away feeling great that my work was recognized before I was.
Q: Now that your marriage to Andre Agassi is over, do you want to get married again?
A: Yes. Are you asking??!
Q: Well, I'm already married. Who else do you have in mind?
A: I don't know who he is.
Q: Who are you closest to in the world right now?
A: My dog.
Q: Are you interested in politics?
A: I've remained reticent about my political beliefs, and I've only spoken out where issues like rights of privacy or children's health are concerned. I've never been comfortable with practical politics. I admire people who can adamantly argue politics, but I often see both sides of the argument too clearly.
Q: How would you characterize yourself? Republican? Democrat? Socialist? Anarchist?
A: I was raised Republican, but now my tendencies are Democratic. I resent the fact that it appears to boil down to money. I agree much more with being a Democrat, but because of my business I feel more protected financially by Republican policies. So it's a dilemma.
Q: Let's talk about money. Of all the actors I've known, only Jimmy Caan and Warren Beatty are as generous in picking up tabs as you are.
A: Actually, since I've never felt that I was owed anything, I hate people who assume it's a free ride. It sickens me to see the way people expect Andre to pick up every tab.
Q: But when we had our first cast dinner for Black and White and the check came to several hundred dollars, you paid it before anyone knew what had happened.
A: I didn't want people to know it was me. True altruism is that which goes unrewarded.
Q: How much longer do you think you'll be doing Susan?
A: My guess is two more years. In the beginning, the show got me parts and the exposure has benefitted me tremendously. Yet, oddly enough, now because of its success, people are pigeonholing me once again, this time as only a TV comedy actress.
Q: Do you feel that the technique necessary for effective sitcom acting is at odds with serious, naturalistic film acting?
A: They are very different mediums, but both involve a sense of abandon and lack of pretension. Once the 22 minutes have been choreographed and the jokes timed out, you have to strip it all away to be funny. The same holds true for drama. Once the blocking is done and the lines are in place, you have to let the real emotions of a scene have a free playing ground.
Q: Do you want to direct films yourself?
A: At this point I'm not done in front of the camera. I'm still looking to be directed. I'll go to the wall for somebody as long as I know they have confidence in me.
Q: What did you discover about yourself from shooting Black and White?
A: That I have the guts for almost anything, that it takes a great deal to throw me and that only by being pushed or pushing myself will I grow. That my talent as an actress is finally being realized, by myself and by others. I've learned that I can't live without challenge. And that I'm proud of how I manage myself.
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James Toback's films include Fingers, Exposed, The Pick-up Artist, The Big Bang, Two Girls and a Guy and Love in Paris. He received an Oscar nomination for his script for Bugsy.