John Waters certainly thinks he does, but then we've come to expect outrageous opinions from the director of Hairspray, Cry-Baby, Pink Flamingos, Polyester and the new Serial Mom. Here, Waters chats about everything from Zsa Zsa Gabor to what he'd do if he were President for just one day.
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I have a bone to pick with John Waters. Back in 1981, I was a bit player in Polyester--in fact, I sacrificed a pair of ankle-strap shoes, which were ripped off my feet by the late, great Divine as he threw me over a table during a riot scene. Why don't you recall this? BECAUSE IT WOUND UP ON THE GODDAMN CUTTING-ROOM FLOOR IS WHY!
John and I have been casual friends for a few years now, but I've never mentioned this past slight. He's in New York promoting Serial Mom, looking much handsomer than he tends to in photos, as we sit in a 38th floor office of Savoy Pictures. After I've shown him my human toenail necklace ("Oh, it's nice," he says. "At least it's painted red. It might be kinda gross if it were all yellow") and we've pored over the pages of the current Weekly World News, we're ready to chat about the electric chair, sex, singing assholes and Divine. First things first, though: I have to vent my pent-up frustration.
EVE GOLDEN: John, you cut me outta Polyester.
JOHN WATERS: Did I?
Q: I had a great part--and then I go to the premiere and the whole riot scene was cut.
A: Well, the joke worked better that way. I always put together a long version and it gets cut. Certainly in Cry-Baby and Hairspray, subplots were cut. I've learned, though. In this film, Serial Mom, there's nothing cut.
Q: You're always referred to as "director John Waters," but you're really more of a writer than a director.
A: I would never get to direct the pictures if they didn't go for the script. For me to ever get my movies made, they have to like the script.
Q: So, do you think of yourself as a writer or a director?
A: Both. But more of a writer, because I have no interest in ever directing a film I didn't write. I don't read scripts. My agent knows not to send them to me. I mean, never say never--maybe if I'm broke or something I'll direct one.
Q: Would you ever let anyone else direct one of your scripts?
A: I hope not. The only way I could see that ever happening is if they took the film away from me or something. But I never go over budget. I give them exactly the film I told them I'm going to do.
Q: Your films are all 90 minutes long. What do you think of all these three-hour films coming out?
A: [Laughing] I think they're too long! Well, not all movies-- Short Cuts didn't seem one bit too long, [nor did] Schindler 's List. The things that feel too long to me are the two-hour films that need a good 15 minutes gone from 'em. I think that's the big problem. There's no such thing as a good, long joke. Brevity is humor.
Q: Hal Roach said anything longer than a two-reel comedy is too long.
A: I agree. Especially in my films, because I'm asking you to laugh at something that basically isn't funny in real life. I'm always tryin' to get away with murder--this time, literally!
Q: I've heard that several actresses turned down the lead in Serial Mom before Kathleen Turner signed on.
A: No, that's not true at all. No one turned it down. This movie was developed at Columbia, and at that time they would not meet Kathleen Turner's price. There was another actress I did meet with and she kept saying [whiny imitation], "I don't know, I want to do a reading..."
Q: Who was it?
A: [Dead silence]. Then it went to Savoy Pictures and they immediately said yes to Kathleen Turner. When I wrote it, not knowing what kind of budget I was going to have, I thought of Julie Andrews. But after one meeting with Kathleen, I knew she had it. She has that inner kind of humor, and rage, that would make the part work.
Q: She has an evil spark in her eye.
A: She enjoys being evil. I knew that from The War of the Roses. And she has classiness. People said, is the character like Dan Quayle's wife? But she's the opposite, she's a liberal, a good mother--she would have voted for Clinton. She's the mother most of my friends wish they'd had. She just has this one problem. She overreacts and kills people.
Q: Now, Serial Mom doesn't have much of the offbeat casting you usually do.
A: Well, Bonnie [Mary Vivian Pearce] and Bridget Berlin are in it--Bridget used to be in Andy Warhol's movies. They play courtroom groupies. Suzanne Somers is in it, too, playing herself.
Q: Is Jean Hill from Desperate Living still alive?
A: Yes, she was at my Christmas party with her own supply of oxygen, a physical therapist and a date. Every so often she'd slip her oxygen mask on, but people were smoking around her and I thought, she's gonna blow up! Later, people were doing her oxygen and I thought, is that safe? It was making me nervous. But Jean is alive and well, and available for modeling.
Q: Why haven't you ever used Zsa Zsa Gabor in a movie?
A: I don't like her much.
Q: Oh, I love the Gabors! I think they're higher life forms! I'd love to see a version of What Ever Happened to Baby Jane? with Eva and Zsa Zsa.
A: Nah, I'm not a fan. I use those types, but there's a thin line.
Q: Who is there you'd kill to work with but haven't had a chance to?
A: People you'd never expect--Meryl Streep, Jodie Foster. That's what's left for me. If there's any way to surprise people, it's by getting A-list people. I always wanted to work with Annette [Funicello]--not that she's not A-list, but it's a different kind of A-list.
Q: Do you get annoyed when people complain that you're not just making Pink Flamingos over and over again?
A: Well, those people will like Serial Mom, though it's certainly not Pink Flamingos. You couldn't make Pink Flamingos today. Where would you show it? There's no midnight movies anymore. Cable would never show it. To this day it's never been on. It will never be shown on cable. It has people eating dog shit. Never. In any lifetime. Which I'm sorta proud of. That's hard to do!
Q: Whenever I show friends Pink Flamingos, they freak out at the Singing Asshole. They always go, "I thought you meant like Frank Sinatra or something," but they never expect that!
A: The Singing Asshole guy had an offer this year to come to a big office party in Boston and do his "act." I said, "Why don't you do it?" He said, "Well, the muscle tone isn't what it used to be." He did say he gave the video to a girl at work and she handed it back the next morning and didn't comment. Well, that's sexual harassment, I guess: "Ya wanna see a film of me?" and you go home and see the person who works next to you flexing his asshole! I don't know what Miss Manners would say is the proper comment.
Q: I find Pink Flamingos--all your films, really--very sweet-natured.
A: Well, I find them happy too, because my sympathy lies with the right person. You can tell who I like. Even if people are murderers, I can overlook that. If you suddenly realized your mother was a murderer, you would change your opinion on capital punishment.
Q: What do you think of capital punishment?
A: Oh, I'm totally against it.
Q: Gee, I believe in capital punishment for almost everyone.
A: Well, I have a friend who was sentenced to it, Leslie Van Houten. She proves you can be rehabilitated.
Q: But don't you think people should take responsibility and pay for their actions?
A: I think when something happened to you when you were 19 and you had the misfortune of moving in with a madman... I think there were mitigating circumstances. I think eventually she should be able to get out. But I don't believe in capital punishment under any circumstances.
Q: Well, I'm in favor of capital punishment, and abortion on demand. So I guess I'm basically pro-death.
A: I'm pro-abortion, but I don't believe you "teach" someone it's wrong to murder by murdering. If they killed someone in my family, I might take a different opinion--there is no fair answer. But at the same time, if your son or your brother committed a murder, you wouldn't want him to get the electric chair.
Q: Do you have a favorite serial killer?
A: I don't really have a favorite. I am trying to get someone out of jail, so I have to be clear on this: I don't think it's funny. What Serial Mom is about is the fame that happens from it. I think that is funny.
Q: I see John Wayne Gacy has run out of appeals.
A: Somebody said they read that Gacy actually said, "I hate John Waters." He said I lied that I have one of his paintings, which I do have. Somebody gave it to me for Christmas--I wouldn't give him my money! I am not a fan of John Wayne Gacy. First of all, he was the ultimate closet queen--he killed 32 people he slept with so they wouldn't tell anybody. He's never said he's sorry, he ain't rehabilitated and he's a bad painter.
Q: Gosh--a serial killer said he hates you? Aren't you a little scared?
A: [Laughing] Of that fat thing?!
Q: Let's change the subject. Whaddaya think of Ricki Lake as a talk-show host? Don't you think there are already too damn many of them?
A: One is too many! I think she does a good job at it. I certainly hope she does not give up her movie career. I'm very happy for her. She wants to be a TV star, always did, because it's more popular than being a movie star. It reaches more people. And if it goes into syndication, Miss Lake can back my next movie.
Q: Do you think your own career has taken a different path because of Divine's death? Would you still be working with him?
A: I think Divine would have been one of the neighbors in Serial Mom. I don't think a studio would have let me make this with Divine as the mother. It's hard enough for me to get a movie made--
Q: Still?
A: Oh, sure. It's hard for anyone. And even harder for it to end up like you originally wanted it. It's always hard, because of these test screenings. Test screenings are great the first couple of times. One girl in a focus group said, "I saw when he was dead, he blinked his eyes," and I never even noticed that, so I fixed it. What I don't agree with is when they have to fill out these numbers on cards: whether you check Good or Very Good makes a huge difference. I mean, compared to what? I think it's very destructive.
Q: Speaking of Divine, while I was writing questions for this interview, I passed a church in the Village that had a sign outside saying "Divine Worship," and it really threw me for a minute.
A: [Laughing] That's where the name came from, all the Catholicism. I always said I didn't name him after the character in Our Lady of the Flowers, but I must've. I read the book and loved it when I was young, but I just remember getting it from the Catholic Church. They'd always say, "This was a Divine thing."
Q: Catholics certainly couldn't have liked Multiple Maniacs--who will Serial Mom piss off?
A: I didn't make it to piss off anyone--but certainly, I always look for what the sacred cows of liberals are. I am a liberal myself, obviously, but this is not politically correct. You like her and she's a murderer.
Q: What do you think of Disney taking that scene out of The Program after those kids got themselves run over?
A: I think it was very stupid, because the movie was already a flop, so why go and spend more money on it? It might have gotten a little more gross for one week if everybody went to see that scene.
Q: There are so many things in your movies that could get people into trouble if they were stupid enough to imitate them.
A: Well, if movies took that responsibility you wouldn't have any movies. Look at Snow White: don't give people poison. I never even think of it. Anyone who sees this will know it's a comedy--anyone who takes it seriously would have done it anyway. If you worry that every movie might affect one single person somewhere, I think that's insane.
Q: Do you watch TV at all? Any favorite shows?
A: Courtroom TV is the only thing I watch, and we don't have it in Baltimore. I have a problem with having a TV on. I have a phobia. I have a lot of TVs, I just never watch 'em!
Q: Do you ever get tired of being "John Waters"?
A: Well, you can never be anonymous, but that's fine, it's part of what you do. I walked into a dirty bookstore one time and everyone yelled, "IT'S JOHN WATERS!" That's not the place you wanna be recognized. But people come up and say nice stuff to me on the street, it's not like I get hassled. Maybe if I were that woman on TV where they have books, I Hate So-and-So--
Q: Shannen Doherty?
A: I don't even know who that is, but I guess it's awful being her. Everywhere you go, people say, "Bitch--I hate you."
Q: You've lost so much of your company: Maelcum Soul, Divine, Edith Massey, Cookie Mueller. When David Lochary, who was in several of your films, died, did it turn you against drugs?
A: Well, it certainly turned me against angel dust, because I'd seen what it had done to David in the last year or two before he died. It alienated our friendship. I already didn't take drugs then--I don't put down drugs, I'd never do an anti-drug commercial. I had fun with drugs. But I stopped at a certain point. People I know who didn't are dead.
Q: Let's talk about love and sex and stuff. I have never once seen your name linked with anyone romantically. Do you date?
A: Well, it's not like I go to proms, but certainly, yes. But I've always kept that private because I've never been involved with anyone who's been in the public life.
Q: Are you with anybody now, any great love?
A: Great love! That's really sayin' a lot! There are people I see, yes, but I'm not with any one person now. But the people I've been with certainly don't want to be in Movieline.
Q: I invented this parlor game I want to play with you. Only bisexuals can't play this.
A: Well, I'm not bisexual. The only bisexual I've ever known was this guy who, when he was with women he wanted to be with men, and when he was with men he wanted to be with women. It made him doubly miserable.
Q: Okay, here it goes: If you were attracted to the sex you're not now attracted to, what famous person would you really love to have sex with?
A: Grace Kelly's elbows. I remember seeing Rear Window and thinking she had the sexiest elbows, and I generally don't look at women's elbows and get turned on, but... While she was alive, though, not now! You never know what people think these days.
Q: You've always been so thin--do you have to watch what you eat?
A: Since I quit smoking, yes. I gained 20 pounds, which I've lost 10 of.
Q: Why'd you finally quit?
A: I smoked five packs a day. I coughed so much I couldn't say a word. People were really alarmed, people on the street were asking me if I needed help. I'll tell you something, the day I quit smoking I never coughed again. I still allow people to smoke in my house. I think I could maybe only love a smoker.
Q: You've always been very open about being gay, but you're not political, are you?
A: They never used to ask me. Well, the premieres of Hairspray and Cry-Baby were for AIDS Action Baltimore. I went to the first gay march I remember, back in 1965. I'm all for that, I send 'em money. I'm for the AIDS radicals, even.
Q: What do you think of certain big stars who get married to cover up being gay?
A: It's not my business to tell them how they should live their life. I wish they would [come out], it would be good if they did, but I can't judge them. They never used to ask me [about being gay]. They never had the nerve to. But I've always thought of myself as a filmmaker who happens to be gay rather than a gay filmmaker. We should be able to have gay villains--not every gay person in movies should be like Mother Teresa.
Q: How about kids? Ever want to have them or adopt?
A: I like kids a lot, as long as they're not mine. I'm way too self-involved to be a good father. Kids like me for some reason--they always stare at me, and I'm always afraid to say hello, because I do look like a child molester. I look like Central Casting sent me as a child molester! So on elevators if a mother stands in front of me with a kid, it always looks at me and starts laughing. If I started making faces back at it I'm afraid the mother would get uptight.
Q: If you were President for a day, what laws would you pass or change?
A: I would give movie stamps to people who couldn't afford it. First run.
Q: John, my Movieline editor wants to know: What's with the pencil mustache? Have you ever considered shaving it off, or growing a full one? I think you'd look really cute in a big mustache.
A: I would have one, but I hate mustaches. If I shaved it off after all these years it would look funny. I bet my skin would be real white there. I think I grew it in 1970 because I love Little Richard and I used to dress like that. It was my homage to Little Richard. I don't even realize I have it--it's real easy, you just shave down every day, clip on the bottom maybe twice a week. And if you miss, you just draw it on.
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Eve Golden interviewed Jill Clayburgh for the April 1993 Movieline.